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	<title>Comments on: What is Philosophical Naturalism, and why do I accept it?</title>
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	<description>The Evidence for a Common Ancestor Between Tables and Chairs</description>
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		<title>By: Blog Anthology Final Selections! &#124; Young Australian Skeptics</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-5482</link>
		<dc:creator>Blog Anthology Final Selections! &#124; Young Australian Skeptics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-5482</guid>
		<description>[...] Man Chan — Newsweek vs Oprah &amp; Enabler Chopra Homologous Legs Blog — What is Philosophical Naturalism, and why do I accept it? Respectful Insolence — The anti-​​vaccine movement: Is it too late for scientists to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Man Chan — Newsweek vs Oprah &amp; Enabler Chopra Homologous Legs Blog — What is Philosophical Naturalism, and why do I accept it? Respectful Insolence — The anti-​​vaccine movement: Is it too late for scientists to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ilikeportello</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3070</link>
		<dc:creator>ilikeportello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 07:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3070</guid>
		<description>Maybe, but what if the failure was due to the arbitrary action of a capricious God? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, but what if the failure was due to the arbitrary action of a capricious God?</p>
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		<title>By: NaonTiotami</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3060</link>
		<dc:creator>NaonTiotami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3060</guid>
		<description>All of these violations could be studied scientifically. Why did entropy fail? Can we come up with a theoretical basis for this? Due to the necessarily interaction with matter and energy, I&#039;d say yes.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of these violations could be studied scientifically. Why did entropy fail? Can we come up with a theoretical basis for this? Due to the necessarily interaction with matter and energy, I&#039;d say yes.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3059</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:12:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3059</guid>
		<description>Hmm. Good question. 
Examples might be a genuine miracle (like regrowing an amputated limb), a failure of entropy, creation of energy, or violation of the law of angular momentum. 
I suppose what I&#039;m saying is that if the scientific method &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; break down  then it would be detectable in the physical world, but still identifiable as a violation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. Good question.<br />
Examples might be a genuine miracle (like regrowing an amputated limb), a failure of entropy, creation of energy, or violation of the law of angular momentum.<br />
I suppose what I&#039;m saying is that if the scientific method <i>did</i> break down  then it would be detectable in the physical world, but still identifiable as a violation.</p>
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		<title>By: NaonTiotami</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3018</link>
		<dc:creator>NaonTiotami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3018</guid>
		<description>Hey Matt, 
 
&quot;A Priori belief in the non-existence of the supernatural (is that a fair definition, btw?) can easily be characterised as bias, or as something requiring evidence. In that sense it shifts the burden of proof from theists (where it should be) to atheists.&quot; 
 
Oh, it is bias, but it&#039;s bias that is accompanied with a change in definition for so-called &quot;supernatural&quot; phenomenon so that they fall under the &quot;natural&quot; label. Well, mostly. 
 
God is tricky, but to get around the burden of proof that you claim pops up, I&#039;d say that I&#039;m not claiming that God does not exist (I&#039;m really not), I&#039;m just shunting His characteristics OUT of a category which for all intents and purposes cannot affect us.  
 
I don&#039;t claim to know anything about God, as it&#039;s up to the individual theist to define their deity any way they want. If they can&#039;t make the claim, I revert to the null hypothesis of non-existence, and I don&#039;t believe that it exists (which is different, of course, to believing that it doesn&#039;t exist). 
 
&quot;To get around this, I subscribe to a kind of functional naturalism, or maybe you could call it scientific naturalism, where I rely wholly on scientific thinking to explain the natural world, and define the supernatural as the point at which the scientific method breaks down.&quot; 
 
When someones says something like &quot;the point at which the scientific method breaks down&quot;, you really have to think about what that actually means. Why would it break down? I&#039;ll leave that to you to come up with an answer for that, because I want to hear what you have to say. 
 
&quot;Under this definition I think it is theoretically possible to have intrusions of the supernatural on our natural world, particularly if you start considering a nature-controlling God. Genuine miracles would be a good example.&quot; 
 
Again, my reply to this depends on your explanation of &quot;science breaking down&quot;.  
 
Cheers, 
Jack </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Matt, </p>
<p>&quot;A Priori belief in the non-existence of the supernatural (is that a fair definition, btw?) can easily be characterised as bias, or as something requiring evidence. In that sense it shifts the burden of proof from theists (where it should be) to atheists.&quot; </p>
<p>Oh, it is bias, but it&#039;s bias that is accompanied with a change in definition for so-called &quot;supernatural&quot; phenomenon so that they fall under the &quot;natural&quot; label. Well, mostly. </p>
<p>God is tricky, but to get around the burden of proof that you claim pops up, I&#039;d say that I&#039;m not claiming that God does not exist (I&#039;m really not), I&#039;m just shunting His characteristics OUT of a category which for all intents and purposes cannot affect us.  </p>
<p>I don&#039;t claim to know anything about God, as it&#039;s up to the individual theist to define their deity any way they want. If they can&#039;t make the claim, I revert to the null hypothesis of non-existence, and I don&#039;t believe that it exists (which is different, of course, to believing that it doesn&#039;t exist). </p>
<p>&quot;To get around this, I subscribe to a kind of functional naturalism, or maybe you could call it scientific naturalism, where I rely wholly on scientific thinking to explain the natural world, and define the supernatural as the point at which the scientific method breaks down.&quot; </p>
<p>When someones says something like &quot;the point at which the scientific method breaks down&quot;, you really have to think about what that actually means. Why would it break down? I&#039;ll leave that to you to come up with an answer for that, because I want to hear what you have to say. </p>
<p>&quot;Under this definition I think it is theoretically possible to have intrusions of the supernatural on our natural world, particularly if you start considering a nature-controlling God. Genuine miracles would be a good example.&quot; </p>
<p>Again, my reply to this depends on your explanation of &quot;science breaking down&quot;.  </p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Jack</p>
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		<title>By: NaonTiotami</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3017</link>
		<dc:creator>NaonTiotami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3017</guid>
		<description>Yes, I was sure someone was going to refer to the &quot;ghostbusting&quot; equipment ghost hunters use.  
 
Of course, I agree that their use of these pieces of equipment are unjustified, ie. they&#039;ve never had a gold standard of &quot;ghost&quot; to draw expected data signals from, but the point is, if they did have such a standard, they could scientifically test ghosts.  
 
I think the mechanisms behind the interactions with the natural world do not have to be explained BEFORE a search commences, but it&#039;s reasonable to expect/demand that some hypotheses could be drawn up beforehand and tested against the data. Good science should be able to be done. It&#039;s clearly not being done at the moment.  
 
Plus, keep in mind that I don&#039;t think ghosts really exist. ;p But people making the claim that they do have no excuse for a lack of evidence. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I was sure someone was going to refer to the &quot;ghostbusting&quot; equipment ghost hunters use.  </p>
<p>Of course, I agree that their use of these pieces of equipment are unjustified, ie. they&#039;ve never had a gold standard of &quot;ghost&quot; to draw expected data signals from, but the point is, if they did have such a standard, they could scientifically test ghosts.  </p>
<p>I think the mechanisms behind the interactions with the natural world do not have to be explained BEFORE a search commences, but it&#039;s reasonable to expect/demand that some hypotheses could be drawn up beforehand and tested against the data. Good science should be able to be done. It&#039;s clearly not being done at the moment.  </p>
<p>Plus, keep in mind that I don&#039;t think ghosts really exist. ;p But people making the claim that they do have no excuse for a lack of evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: NaonTiotami</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3016</link>
		<dc:creator>NaonTiotami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3016</guid>
		<description>Hi David, 
 
It&#039;s a nice analogy you&#039;ve drawn between God and His creation, and an author and their characters. This may in fact be a true description of reality. However, it&#039;s an unfalsifiable one.  
 
How are we to know if this is the case, that God is the author of reality? While His actions do affect the physical world, by the very way you&#039;ve set up the analogy, they affect it in a way that is not detectable: reality could proceed in exactly the same way without a God. Adding a God into the equation does not alter anything, unless that God intervenes in ways that are not consistent with what we would expect the world to do by itself.  
 
Unfalsifiable ideas such as this may have emotional benefits (eg. &quot;God has a plan for me&quot;), but ultimately, they don&#039;t advance our understanding of reality at all. 
 
Cheers, 
Jack </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David, </p>
<p>It&#039;s a nice analogy you&#039;ve drawn between God and His creation, and an author and their characters. This may in fact be a true description of reality. However, it&#039;s an unfalsifiable one.  </p>
<p>How are we to know if this is the case, that God is the author of reality? While His actions do affect the physical world, by the very way you&#039;ve set up the analogy, they affect it in a way that is not detectable: reality could proceed in exactly the same way without a God. Adding a God into the equation does not alter anything, unless that God intervenes in ways that are not consistent with what we would expect the world to do by itself.  </p>
<p>Unfalsifiable ideas such as this may have emotional benefits (eg. &quot;God has a plan for me&quot;), but ultimately, they don&#039;t advance our understanding of reality at all. </p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Jack</p>
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		<title>By: TheDarwinReport</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3013</link>
		<dc:creator>TheDarwinReport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3013</guid>
		<description>Excellent Post! 
 
But in relation to the ghost aspect, so-called ghosthunters arm themselves with tons of electronic equipment with the &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; belief that all of it can actually detect ghostly phenomena, whatever they may be. Why a thermal imaging camera detects a ghost&#039;s lack of body temperature, no one seems to know. Believers assume ghosts must be miserably cold entities. So, ask a ghosthunter how ghosts can be both supernatural and detectable in the natural world, and you&#039;ll likely get double-talk for an answer.      </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent Post! </p>
<p>But in relation to the ghost aspect, so-called ghosthunters arm themselves with tons of electronic equipment with the <i>a priori</i> belief that all of it can actually detect ghostly phenomena, whatever they may be. Why a thermal imaging camera detects a ghost&#039;s lack of body temperature, no one seems to know. Believers assume ghosts must be miserably cold entities. So, ask a ghosthunter how ghosts can be both supernatural and detectable in the natural world, and you&#039;ll likely get double-talk for an answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3012</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3012</guid>
		<description>Hi Jack, 
Nice post. You&#039;re right, God is a funny one, isn&#039;t he? 
I&#039;m one of those atheists who (as you say) shies away from the philoshophical naturalist label, mainly because it makes atheism an easy target for theists. 
&lt;i&gt;A Priori&lt;/i&gt; belief in the non-existence of the supernatural (is that a fair definition, btw?) can easily be characterised as bias, or as something requiring evidence. In that sense it shifts the burden of proof from theists (where it should be) to atheists. 
To get around this, I subscribe to a kind of functional naturalism, or maybe you could call it scientific naturalism, where I rely wholly on scientific thinking to explain the natural world, and define the supernatural as the point at which the scientific method breaks down. 
Under this definition I think it is theoretically possible to have instrusions of the supernatural on our natural world, particularly if you start considering a nature-controlling God. Genuine miracles would be a good example. 
The thing is, we&#039;re yet to observe such a breakdow, and until such time as that happens, atheism is the positon that makes the most sense. 
But like any belief, it remains contingent on the evidence presented. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jack,<br />
Nice post. You&#039;re right, God is a funny one, isn&#039;t he?<br />
I&#039;m one of those atheists who (as you say) shies away from the philoshophical naturalist label, mainly because it makes atheism an easy target for theists.<br />
<i>A Priori</i> belief in the non-existence of the supernatural (is that a fair definition, btw?) can easily be characterised as bias, or as something requiring evidence. In that sense it shifts the burden of proof from theists (where it should be) to atheists.<br />
To get around this, I subscribe to a kind of functional naturalism, or maybe you could call it scientific naturalism, where I rely wholly on scientific thinking to explain the natural world, and define the supernatural as the point at which the scientific method breaks down.<br />
Under this definition I think it is theoretically possible to have instrusions of the supernatural on our natural world, particularly if you start considering a nature-controlling God. Genuine miracles would be a good example.<br />
The thing is, we&#039;re yet to observe such a breakdow, and until such time as that happens, atheism is the positon that makes the most sense.<br />
But like any belief, it remains contingent on the evidence presented.</p>
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		<title>By: David Evans</title>
		<link>http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631&#038;cpage=1#comment-3011</link>
		<dc:creator>David Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.naontiotami.com/?p=631#comment-3011</guid>
		<description>&quot;Under philosophical naturalism, God exists within this Universe, perhaps in another dimension or something.&quot; 
That would rule out the idea, which I consider quite plausible, that God&#039;s relation to this universe parallels that of an author to a novel. The author is responsible for everything that happens in the novel, but that doesn&#039;t imply that the characters could detect his/her existence. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Under philosophical naturalism, God exists within this Universe, perhaps in another dimension or something.&quot;<br />
That would rule out the idea, which I consider quite plausible, that God&#039;s relation to this universe parallels that of an author to a novel. The author is responsible for everything that happens in the novel, but that doesn&#039;t imply that the characters could detect his/her existence.</p>
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